Duda encendido transistorizado original bosch

buenas, me he hecho con un sistema NOS de encendido transistorizado bosch:



es el mismo que se montaba en su dia para mejorar la duracion y las prestaciones de los encendidos por platinos

este modulo, que cuenta con su bobina especifica, actua como un rele transistorizado, los platinos siguen ejerciendo la mision de determinar el pulso, pero ya no reciben la intensidad maxima sino tan solo una intensidad minima atenuada por el resistor y la ausencia de condensador, asi se reduce el arco y se logra que los platinos incrementen su duracion,

ademas se logra una descarga perfecta en todas las gamas de rpms del motor evitando descargas incompletas que se producian en sistemas convencionales al incrementar las rpms, se mejora la respuesta en altas

todo muy mono, lo he visto instalado en coches tales como un 700 sport del museo clasico de bmw, en 2002, etc,...

la cuestion es, alguno sabe los detalles del montaje, con que resistores, conexionado, etc,...

gracias

 

ideas ?

 

Transistorized Ignition
This component is part of Ignition System.


Definition
The 230, 250 and early 280SL ignition system is conventional with a hot wire going to the ignition coil after passing through a ballast resistor which drops the voltage down to around 8.5 volts. This resistor is in series all the time, including during start-up. With this basic system the coil current could not be increased much above 3A without seriously shortening the service life of the points, thus placing an upper limit on the attainable spark energy. Also, erosion of the points caused by arcing leads to timing drift and necessiates frequent service intervals.

It was against this background that the first transistor assisted ignition system was developed, and current through the contact points significantly reduced. Although an improvement over the basic system, despite the use of special contact breaker points they remained the most common cause of ignition faults in service on 6 and 8 cylinder engines.

A special low-resistance (0.4Ω) high-current coil with a step-up ratio of around 1:185 (rather than the more normal 1:100 for a conventional points driven ballasted coil) had to be used. The coil carried the Bosch blue color with a yellow sticker marked ‘Transistor’. This system was characterised by two ballast resistors, 0.6Ω (with metallic clamp band) in series with the coil and 0.4Ω (with a blue clamp band) in series with the ignition amplifier, the latter resistor being shorted during cranking to give increased spark energy when starting. Because the peak coil current was of the order of 7 amps and the dwell angle with points necessarily large, all the components of the ignition system generated a significant amount of waste heat, not least the amplifier unit which was housed in a cast aluminium box. On Pagodas, this box is mounted under the battery tray.

For quicker starting, a resistor bypass circuit can be easily hooked up on early cars. See Ignition Coils section for details and additional wiring diagrams.



Mercedes Benz Transistorized Ignition Wiring (Typical 113 Chassis)

The diagram shows a typical transistorized ignition system as used with the 113 Chassis, specifically the 1969 280SL. The switch gear is part of the latter W113 models' transistorized ignition system. The box contains a transistor and is encased in a resin as protection to vibrations and corrosion.

This system significantly reduces point current by using a high power transistor - located inside the module - to handle the current through the ignition coil; the points simply trigger the transistor. The diagram below shows the internal layout of the ignition module. The following text explains how the module works and how the current through the points is reduced.

In order to better understand how the system functions, one needs to understand the Mercedes Benz numbering convention used in their diagrams. The numbers used to identify the terminals on switches, modules and other components follow a specific convention to tell the reader what voltage or signal is found on the terminal. The standard convention is shown below in the table.


Mercedes Benz (Bosch) Transistorized Ignition - Internal Layout of Module


Terminal NumberDefinition
1Ignition coil negative (-) terminal
15+12 Volts switched (ON/RUN position of the ignition switch)
16+12 Volts when the engine is cranking (from starter motor)
30+12 Volts direct from the battery, not switched
50+12 Volts when the ignition switch is in the START position
R+12 Volts when the ignition switch is in the RADIO or ON/RUN position

How the Transistorized System Works

Transistorised Ignition
When the ignition switch is set to the ON/RUN position, +12 Volts is applied to terminal 15 of the ignition module through the 0.4 Ohm ballast resistor. When the ignition switch is set to the START position (engine cranking) +12 volts is applied directly to terminal 15 of the ignition module from the solenoid on the starter motor. This effectively bypasses the 0.4 ohm ballast resistor and offers higher voltage during cranking.

When the engine starts and the ignition switch is returned to the ON/RUN position, +12 Volts is again supplied to terminal 15 of the ignition module through the 0.4 Ohm ballast resistor.

A typical firing sequence is as follows.

1. +12 Volts is applied to the ignition module through the 0.4Ω ballast resistor
2. Assuming that the points in the distributor are open, transistor Q1 is turned off because terminal 7 of the ignition module is open (no ground from the points). No voltage is present at terminal 16 of the ignition module, thus no current flows through the 0.6 Ohm ballast resistor or the ignition coil.
3. As the engine cranks, the hexagonal cam in the distributor begins to turn and the points close.
4. When the points close, a ground is applied to terminal 7 of the ignition module and transistor Ql turns on. This applies +12 Volts to terminal 15 of the ignition coil through the 0.6Ω ballast resistor. The current through the points is extremely small (thousandths of an Ampere or milli-amperes) instead of 4-5 Amperes as seen in a non-transistorized system.
5. When transistor Q1 is turned ON, capacitor C2 is discharged (shorted by Q1).
6. When the points open, capacitor C2 begins to charge. The charge path is: +12 Volts from the ignition switch - 0.4Ω ballast resistor - C2 - 0.6Ω ballast resistor and the ignition coil to ground.
7. As capacitor C2 begins to charge, a pulse is created in the ignition coil, which causes a high voltage to be generated and sent to the appropriate spark plug.
8. When the points close again, transistor Q1 is turned ON and the cycle repeats.

Point wear and stress is significantly reduced since the transistor is handling the current through the coil (4-5 Amperes). The points were designed to switch high currents repeatedly for tens-of-thousands of miles, therefore, when switching a very small current, they should last for a much longer time. Tune-up intervals (due to point failure) become longer and vehicle maintenance becomes cheaper.

But (yes, there's always a "but"), we still have the points. Points are mechanical, subject to bounce and vibration and must be actuated - mechanically - by the camshaft in the distributor. Whereas the wear on the point contacts has been reduced, the fiber pawl, which rides between the points and the distributor camshaft, can still wear out or break.

Electronic Ignitions provide solutions for this.


Maintenance
The switch gear component is installed under the battery box. Remove the battery and the battery frame plate. The switch gear box can then be seen.

If the switch gear fails, the entire unit needs to be replaced... MB Part No. 000 545 18 32



Switchgear box


Switchgear circuit diagram


Verifying if your switching unit is bad
This can be done using this procedure. It takes a bit of guidance to find the right wires and bypass the switching unit if it is not functioning correctly. The car will run with the unit bypassed, if the points are good and there are no other obvious ignition problems.

Symptoms for a bad switching unit:


The car will either start right up and run cleanly, especially when cold. Suddenly it will stumble and cut-out after only seconds (or after 10 minutes of driving). Once the problem occurs it seems to get progressively harder to keep running for more than a few seconds until it finally just cranks and seems to show either no spark or very weak spark. Troubleshooting it today from cold engine condition, it started right up smoothly, then died after 20 seconds. On all subsequent starting attempts (basically still with a cold engine) it starts up and then stumbles very erratically in idle until it dies after several seconds, sometimes it races up to fast idle for a second and then dies. Fuel is plentiful and pressurized. It seems like the ignition is arbitrarily cutting out. I know this could sound like the ballast resistors which I have both checked and replaced, as well as the coil, high-tension ignition lead and more. I also replaced the transistorized ignitions "black box" with another one. Do all of these symptoms together sound familiar to anyone? Otherwise I'm not quite sure where to go next except for checking wiring shorts or breaks.

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Si no recuerdo mal, quien sabía mucho de esto era Carlos "Trastoloko" , pero hace tiempo que no le veo comentar, no se que ha sido de el

 

http://www.hueco.com/mm/HuecoEnginemanagement.pdf

cuando tengo un caso de estos el esquema electrico lo saco de aqui.

15: positivo de contacto
1 negativo de bobina, señal de mando
TD: señal a cuenta rpm
31 masa
G+ G- señal del entrada del sensor

 

me lo has quitado de la boca,con los esquemas e informacion que has puesto creo que lo facil ya lo tienes,saludos.

 

pues no, no es tan directo, sucede que no coinciden los terminales de uno y otro casos, el de mercedes tiene tres termniales y el mio tiene seis, a saber:

mercedes. 15/16/7 y ademas 3
bosch. 16/16/31/15/31d/7

asi que que hago ?

 

Igual digo un tontería, pero... ¿contactar con Bosch?

Tienen un departamento de "automotive tradition" e igual se mojan y te pasan un esquema específico...

Salu2

 

no es mala, no, ...
pero mientras a ver si alguno me orienta un pokillo

 

claro,no podia ser tan bonito,en el clasicauto habia un puesto que vendia estas cosas y entendia del tema,no se como se llama pero vende delcos sin platinos electronicos,para casi todos los motores,seguro que tiene algun anuncio en internet,igual vende el mismo

 

ese es bueno...

 

He consultado el listado de expositores de Classicauto 2014 y el de los encendidos debe ser éste (un tal Antonio García García):

http://www.electronicademotos.com/tienda/

Salu2

 

He consultado el listado de expositores de Classicauto 2014 y el de los encendidos debe ser éste (un tal Antonio García García):

http://www.electronicademotos.com/tienda/

Salu2

 

merci !

 

no lo se seguro,pero tenia de coches de 4,6 y 8 cilindros,sera preguntarle haber si ha oido algo del tema en cuestion

 

recapitulando, este es el esquema de mis conexiones actuales, con bobina azul con resistor integrado

 

y la instalación final



1- DISTRIBUTOR SIN PLATINOS:






2- DISTRIBUTOR CON PLATINOS: ojo, eliminar el condensador tomar la señal de los platinos

 

solo una aclaracion,es tacómetro, tacografo escribe la lectura en un diagrama,saludos.

 

+1, finissimo !

 

tras un prolongado tiempo de asueto que he dedicado esencialmente a meterle kilómetros al chaval, retomo este tema,

cuestión es de encontrar un lugar adecuado para la instalación de la caja electrónica, y en justa correspondencia la fabricación de elementos de cobertura y soporte, vean, vean



trying to find a good place for the transistor box,...

below the coil is difficult, AC hoses must use that space, additionally there is a lot of radiation heat from the exhaust



this place looks nice, open, empty, fresh air moving around for heat dissipation



how to make it ? how to install and keep it rain proof




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mock-ups

















connector



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sheet aluminium



























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ft





test in position





check if the Hood closes without problems



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gt
once checked, i reconsidered the design of this box, to improve assembly and eventual dissasembly, ...e voila !



upside down



as termal dissipation is an issue i have to optimise heat conduction, and enhance dissipation surface:

 

Hay que banear a este troll..no hace más que incordiar con sus bricos...

 

es un incontinente !
pero d ahi a banearlo ! ?

 

Da pié a que los demás quedemos como el ..

Que baje el listón coñe...


Pd: Lo del módulo adicional de disipación de calor ma dejao patidifuso...

 

todo esto sale de aqui:

the transistorized way:
.


in a 700-sport



la cuestion es que el montaje podria ser directo sobre las aletas, pero la unica zona libre cercana ya mencione que estaba sometida a la vista directa de los colectores de escape, asi que a pesar de disponer de la propia carroceria como disipador el calor radiado no me inspiraba, por ello el buscar otra zona mas ventilada y fresca, pero se precisaba un disipador, asi que nada una chapa plegada y unas uniones mecanicas masivas

 

pues probado cabida y montabilidad, y...yupiiiiii !

 

Gran trabajo otra vez! Para variar!!

 

Gran trabajo Dequi . en cuanto termine mi epoca seisera me meto con este tema . Por cierto, El chasis de la tartana esa que muestras esta peor soldado que los empastes de mia abuela , creo que yo mismo los haria mejor con 3 gintonics encima